The Marian Dogmas

How it ran

1. 8:16Host explains the format
2. 9:16Sungenis opening statement
3. 25:44Christie's opening statement
4. 41:29Sungenis first rebuttal
5. 52:04Christie's first rebuttal
6. 1:03:31Sungenis second rebuttal
7. 1:09:15Christie's second rebuttal
8. 1:15:26Cross-examination, Sungenis asks
9. 1:40:49Cross-examination, Christie asks
10. 2:01:42Sungenis closing statement
11. 2:07:23Christie's closing statement
12. 2:12:25Audience questions

The key exchanges

Steve Christie's point first, then Robert's answer. The time jumps to that moment in the video.

1. 42:59

   1. Brothers versus relatives

   Christie argues that Matthew 13 and Luke use adelphoi for Jesus' brothers and syngeneis for relatives in the same passages, so the brothers cannot be cousins.

   Robert answered that the New Testament writers do not always use the specific word, since Luke still writes in a Hebrew idiom and in Acts 23:16 calls Paul's nephew the son of Paul's sister, so one cannot argue that a cousin would always be called a cousin.

   “You're going to see this mix and matching in the Greek New Testament all the way through.”

2. 46:32

   2. Until in Matthew 1:25

   Christie argues that the phrase heos hou in Matthew 1:25 always marks a change of action in the New Testament, so Joseph kept Mary a virgin only until Jesus was born.

   Robert answered that heos hou can either continue or end the action of the main verb, that the Septuagint uses it the same way as heos alone, and in cross-examination he pointed to Matthew 14:22, Matthew 26:36 and 2 Peter 1:19 as cases where the main verb continues.

   “If it continues the action then it upholds the Catholic interpretation.”

3. 1:03:31

   3. Mary's sin offering

   Christie argues that after her purification Mary brought a sin offering under Leviticus 12, which Leviticus 4 and 5 say is made to atone for sin.

   Robert answered that Mary and Joseph were keeping the rituals the law required, just as Jesus was circumcised, and Jesus was sinless.

   “Jesus was sinless so there's no point to be made here when you say well Mary had to be purified.”

4. 1:03:31

   4. Fathers who denied it

   Christie argues that the fathers did not hold the Immaculate Conception as defined in 1854, and that Chrysostom, Augustine, Aquinas and others denied it.

   Robert answered that doctrines begin in seed form and grow, as the Trinity and the Incarnation were worked out over centuries of dispute before councils settled them.

   “They grow organically and we understand more about them as time goes on like the Trinity and the Incarnation.”

5. 1:04:38

   5. Why not Joseph too

   Christie argues that calling Mary special begs the question, since Mary's mother and Joseph were also special and some doctors of the Church believed Joseph was assumed.

   Robert answered that the Church treats Mary as the exception to the rule because she alone is the mother of God, and Joseph, good as he was, is not in that place.

   “What I think you're missing in all this is that look Mary's the exception to these rules.”

6. 1:06:57

   6. Epiphanius and Elijah

   Christie argues that in Panarion 79 Epiphanius is warning against worshipping Mary and comparing her body to the saints, not teaching an assumption.

   Robert answered that he had read the warning against worship, but in this sentence Epiphanius compares Mary to Elijah, who was taken up and has not seen death, and Epiphanius did not invent that belief himself.

   “Why would he compare the two if Mary hadn't been raised from death?”

7. 1:23:52

   7. Contradicting councils

   Christie argues that ecumenical councils and the supreme magisterium have contradicted each other, so the magisterium cannot guarantee these dogmas.

   Robert answered that the magisterium has several levels and that at the level of infallible dogma the Church has never contradicted herself, whatever individual fathers disagreed about along the way.

   “The church has never contradicted herself at all, not once.”

8. 1:50:45

   8. Blood shed for Mary

   Christie asks, from Hebrews 9:22 and Romans 5:8, what Jesus shed His blood to forgive in Mary if she was sinless.

   Robert answered that the Church teaches the atonement was applied to Mary in advance of her conception, just as it was applied to Abraham and David before the cross.

   “The reason Mary could be born or could be conceived without sin was that the atonement was applied to her prior to her conception.”

9. 1:57:20

   9. Death as punishment

   Christie argues that since the Second Council of Orange calls bodily death the punishment of sin, Mary's death shows she bore original sin.

   Robert answered that Mary died because of Adam's sin, not her own, and that he accepts the exception because many fathers and medieval writers held it and the Church put her stamp on it.

   “She died because of the sin of Adam.”