Live debate
Vatican II, Nostra Aetate and the Muslims
Robert Sungenis vs. Bro. Peter Dimond
What was argued
Dimond argued that Nostra Aetate 3, by saying the Church regards the Muslims with esteem and that they adore the one God who has spoken to men, esteems the Islamic faith, which popes had called an abominable and diabolical sect, and so denies the dogmas that God does not approve false sects and that there is no true worship outside the Catholic Church, a reading he said the post-conciliar claimants, whom he regards as antipopes, confirm again and again. Sungenis argued that the passage defines nothing, states facts about what Muslims believe, never uses the words Islam is approved or true worship, and esteems Muslims only for what they share with Catholics, belief in one God and a moral life, as a common ground for peace and for preaching the Gospel. Both men agreed that true worship is found only in the Catholic Church, that no false sect can be approved, that Muhammad was a false prophet and the Muslims are pagans, and that acts such as John Paul II kissing the Quran were wrong.
How it ran
The key exchanges
Bro. Peter Dimond's point first, then Robert's answer. The time jumps to that moment in the video.
- 5:46
1. God cannot approve false sects
Dimond argues that Leo XII taught as dogma that God cannot approve false sects, that Islam has been declared a diabolical and abominable sect, and that Nostra Aetate 3 esteems it, as Benedict XVI admitted when he tied his respect for the Islamic religion to this passage.
Robert answered that he agrees no sect can be approved, but the passage does not approve Islam: it esteems the Muslims on certain conditions, chiefly that they worship one God, and Benedict XVI's reading was his private opinion, not an official statement of the Church.
“I would agree that it's impossible to approve a sect.”
- 6:56
2. No true worship outside the Church
Dimond argues that Gregory XVI taught as dogma that God cannot be truly worshipped except in the Catholic Church, and that Nostra Aetate teaches the Muslims truly worship God outside it.
Robert answered that he accepts that dogma, but the passage speaks of the worship Muslims give to the one God, which the Church recognizes at a lower level and would never call true worship. The word truly is not in the text.
“The only true worship is in the Catholic Church.”
- 10:16
3. Fides islamica in the text
Dimond argues that the passage does name the Islamic faith (fides islamica) in the very context of praising Muslim fasting and worship, so it esteems the religion and not only its people.
Robert at first said he saw only the word for Muslims in the Latin, then conceded the phrase is there. He answered that it appears only where the text reports that the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself to Abraham, which does not affirm that the link is legitimate.
“I made a mistake there.”
- 11:16
4. Weight of post-conciliar statements
Dimond argues that the repeated teaching of Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI, in an encyclical, exhortations, catecheses and addresses, that the Church esteems non-Christian religions on the basis of Vatican II, would be binding magisterium if they were popes, and is more confirmation than exists for Nicaea or Ephesus.
Robert answered that a council is either confirmed or not, and volume does not settle it. Benedict XVI binds him only in an official capacity, not in personal opinions, speeches or books, and no pope has declared what Nostra Aetate says about Muslims to be infallible dogma.
“Only in an official sense is he my authority and even then we have room to disagree with him.”
- 14:28
5. Paul at the Areopagus
Dimond argues that Acts 17 does not help, since Gregory of Nyssa said the Athenians were mad with idolatry and Jerome rendered the word as superstitious, and Paul never said they worshipped the true God.
Robert answered that Jerome's translation was not inspired, the Greek means very religious, and Paul found common ground with pagans he was trying to bring to the Gospel. He agreed the Athenians' worship was misguided: that is why Paul was there.
“I never said it did say true worship.”
- 30:34
6. Appealing to the popes
Dimond argues that no decree from the men who imposed the Council is needed to show it heretical, just as a Catholic rejects the Joint Declaration with Lutherans for contradicting Trent, and that anyone who accepts Vatican II must also accept how its promulgators interpret it.
Robert answered that this is a vicious circle: Dimond cannot both call these popes heretics and use their words as authority, and the conditions under which they would bind Robert to their reading of Nostra Aetate 3 have not been shown.
“If they're heretical who makes the difference what they're saying as far as you're concerned.”
- 31:35
7. Muslims as pagans
Dimond argues that Callistus III ordered a Mass against the pagans aimed at the Muslims, that popes called them godless and Muhammad a false prophet, and that this is the opposite of calling them believers who worship God.
Robert answered that he agrees the Muslims are pagans and Muhammad a false prophet, but Nostra Aetate 3 does not take up that question. Like Paul with the Athenians, it looks for common ground with pagans in order to reach them.
“I have no problem with that, they are pagans.”
- 35:44
8. They adore the one God
Dimond argues that the text uses the same verb as John 4:23 to 24, adorant, saying Muslims adore the God who has spoken to men, while the Gospel says true adorers must worship in truth and accept Christ.
Robert answered that Latin has no articles, so the phrase can read they adore one God, a statement of fact. Since there is only one God, whoever adores one God is directed to the same God, and Romans 1 and 2 show a degree of worship short of true worship.
“The better way to say this is they do not worship God truly.”
- 46:53
9. Esteem for the whole religion
Dimond argues there are two separate heresies, esteeming Islam as a whole and ascribing true worship to it, and that Benedict XVI's esteem for all Muslim believers, citing this passage, proves the Council meant the religion itself.
Robert answered that the passage esteems Muslims for believing in one God, not for the errors of Islam such as denying that Christ is God. He said the Ramadan greetings, John Paul II kissing the Quran and the Assisi prayer meetings were errors that took Vatican II beyond what it said.
“It's not a heresy to esteem a people for believing in one God.”
Robert's case in 5 points
- 1
Vatican II was an ecumenical council, there was no prior dogmatic teaching on the Muslims, and what it says about them is not defined dogma, so it cannot be heresy in the sense of Canon 751.
3:23 - 2
Nostra Aetate would be heretical if it said Muslims need not accept the Christian faith for salvation or could be counted Christians, but it only states what Muslims claim to believe and measures how close that is to Catholic doctrine.
4:37 - 3
Like the Gentiles of Romans 2:14 to 15, Muslims who submit to God's decrees support a moral order the Church can respect, without the Church saying they are saved by it.
21:56 - 4
The passage cannot approve Islam since it records that Muslims deny Jesus is God; it names common ground so the Church, which must preach the Gospel to Muslims, has fertile ground to do so.
25:08 - 5
Post-conciliar errors such as kissing the Quran came from people making Vatican II's ambiguities say what it never taught, not from the text of Nostra Aetate 3.
53:54
Closing
Robert closed by saying Nostra Aetate 3 names what Muslims share with Catholics, belief in one God, obedience to Him as Creator and a moral life, as a basis for living at peace, as Romans 12 asks, and does not say Muslims are saved or that their religion is mostly true. He said the Church still must preach the Gospel to them, and the real error is reading the passage to mean Muslims have their own way of salvation.
59:02
Go deeper: Was God Behind the Ambiguities of Vatican II?
Robert's book on how the Council's ambiguous passages should be read.
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