Authority in Religion

How it ran

1. 0:00Host introduces the speakers
2. 1:22Night one: Hester's opening statement (affirmative)
3. 22:08Sungenis opening statement
4. 41:14Hester's rebuttal
5. 51:36Sungenis rebuttal
6. 1:03:24Cross-examination
7. 1:32:21Hester's closing statement
8. 1:43:24Sungenis closing statement
9. 1:55:02Night two: host states the Catholic proposition
10. 1:57:46Sungenis opening statement (affirmative)
11. 2:08:37Hester's opening statement
12. 2:31:37Sungenis rebuttal
13. 2:42:14Hester's rebuttal
14. 2:53:20Question and answer between the speakers
15. 3:24:21Sungenis closing statement
16. 3:34:28Hester's closing statement

The key exchanges

David Hester's point first, then Robert's answer. The time jumps to that moment in the video.

1. 33:03

   1. Not beyond what is written

   Hester argues that 1 Corinthians 4:6, where Paul tells the Corinthians not to go beyond what is written, forbids adding doctrines and practices that have no scriptural basis.

   Robert answered that Paul kept giving the Corinthians oral revelation while writing to them, so if the verse means Scripture is the only authority today it had to mean the same thing then, which it plainly did not.

   “If it's true today it had to be true yesterday in the apostolic times.”

2. 54:13

   2. Seventeen books and ten more

   Hester argues that at least 17 New Testament books were already recognized as Scripture within the New Testament itself, and that the books existed long before any council met.

   Robert answered that the books obviously had to exist before the Church could rule on them, and that the New Testament says nothing about the other ten, so someone other than Scripture had to decide on those.

   “Obviously they're going to have to exist before the church can make a decision on them.”

3. 57:57

   3. What counts as contradiction

   Hester argues that Catholic tradition contradicts the Bible, since Scripture requires hearing, believing and repenting before baptism while the Catechism requires the baptism of infants.

   Robert answered that a real contradiction needs Scripture to say one thing explicitly and the Church the opposite, such as a command not to baptize infants; differences that come from rival interpretations of hard passages are not contradictions.

   “If that contradiction stood up I wouldn't be a Roman Catholic today.”

4. 1:00:31

   4. Did the keys end with Peter

   Hester argues that the Greek of Matthew 16:19 means what is bound on earth will already have been bound in heaven, and that nothing in the text says Peter's authority passes on through succession.

   Robert answered that Jesus would not set up an office of authority only for it to vanish at Peter's death, any more than the presidency ended with George Washington, and that already bound only strengthens his point because heaven cannot bind a falsehood.

   “The fact is heaven's not going to bind a lie.”

5. 1:22:03

   5. Implicit teaching and Mary

   Hester argues that the Bible authorizes by implicit as well as explicit statements, and that Catholic doctrines about Mary, such as her perpetual virginity, are contradicted by passages like Matthew 1:24 to 25.

   Robert answered that the Bible never mentions the Immaculate Conception, so it cannot contradict it, and that the Church draws the doctrine from Scripture implicitly, the very method Hester says he uses.

   “So I'm just using David's hermeneutic to defend the Immaculate Conception.”

6. 1:27:23

   6. The meaning of baptizo

   Hester argues that baptizo means to immerse, that Romans 6:4 describes burial in baptism, and that the Catechism itself admits the word means to plunge.

   Robert answered that the word is wider than dipping, since Scripture speaks of baptism with fire and the Spirit, and that the Church immerses as well as pours and sprinkles because sprinkling is also found in Scripture, as in Hebrews.

   “The word baptism is much wider than the idea of just dipping or immersing somebody.”

7. 1:45:50

   7. No central headquarters

   Hester admits that churches of Christ still differ on questions such as divorce and remarriage and war, but argues that congregations are autonomous and each Christian can read and understand Scripture for himself.

   Robert answered that this admission is his whole case: without a central authority such disputes run on for generations, and even Hester's answer on abortion for rape and incest came from reasoning about implicit information, which is what the Church does.

   “Well I couldn't have said it better myself because that's exactly the problem, there is no central authority.”

8. 1:53:27

   8. Profitable, not sufficient

   Hester argues from 2 Timothy 3:16 to 17 that Scripture alone makes the man of God complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work, which no catechism or creed can do.

   Robert answered that the Greek word means profitable, not sufficient or the only authority, and that in the same context Paul points Timothy to tradition as well as Scripture.

   “It doesn't mean sufficient, it doesn't mean the only authority, it doesn't mean perfect, it means profitable.”

9. 2:41:12

   9. A prophet of warning

   Hester quotes Robert's own website calling recent pontificates almost a total disaster and asks how he can defend an unbroken, authoritative Magisterium at the same time.

   Robert answered that he distinguishes official, binding teaching from the private opinions of churchmen, and that like Israel, which had infallible access to God and still disobeyed, the Church can be rebuked by a prophet without its binding doctrines changing.

   “So I can condemn my church just like Jeremiah condemned Israel.”

10. 3:02:37

    10. What succession means

    Hester argues that Acts 1:21 to 22 requires an apostle to have been a witness of Jesus' ministry and resurrection, so no pope or bishop today can succeed the apostles.

    Robert answered that apostolic succession does not produce new apostles: it means the Church's authority is built on the apostles, passed to bishops such as Timothy, whose qualifications in 1 Timothy 3 many men can meet.

    “Apostolic succession does not mean there has to be another apostle after the apostle Peter.”